Shepherding with Dr. Fred Provenza

Is the art and science of shepherding a lost practice, or can we still learn from it today?

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In our SoilHealthLabs podcast series, Joe Dickie and I sat down with Dr. Fred Provenza to explore this question in the episode “Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of Livestock to Restore Your Land”. We dive into the skills of shepherds who not only guide their animals but also learn from them, using their knowledge to create a healthy balance between animals and the land.

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Joe starts by pointing out the difference between a herder and a shepherd. A herder simply directs where animals go, but a shepherd observes and lets the animals choose the plants they need. This method, Fred explains, benefits both the land and the animals. It’s about more than just livestock—it’s about keeping the landscape diverse, which is good for the soil and the plants that the livestock and wildlife depend on.

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Fred talks about his experiences with French shepherds through his work with Michel Meuret, a French ecologist, animal behaviorist, and nutritionist. These shepherds think about the order in which animals graze, not just what they graze. For example, a shepherd might have the animals eat protein-rich plants first, then move them to graze on tannin-rich oak or birch. This way, the animals use the whole landscape without overgrazing the best spots.

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Fred explains that shepherds and their flocks learn from each other. “The shepherds are learning from the animals, and then they’re using that learning to work with the animals,” he says. This approach is all about observation and trying things out, much like how farmers and ranchers traditionally learn from the land instead of just from books. It’s a blend of hands-on experience and practical know-how.

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We also touch on the bigger picture—how modern practices have disconnected us from our food sources. Fred shares how he was invited to speak at the 2024 Old Salt Festival in Montana, a state full of cattle, yet much of the beef consumed there is imported. This disconnect, Fred argues, weakens our community ties and our connection to the land.

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As we wrap up, Fred highlights the importance of rebuilding these connections. The lessons from shepherds—who learn directly from their animals and the land—can guide us in improving our food systems. This episode encourages us to think about where our food comes from and to value practical knowledge in keeping our ecosystems healthy. Stay tuned for more with Fred in the upcoming episode!

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Dr. Fred Provenza is professor emeritus of Behavioral Ecology at the Department of Wildland Resources, Utah State University. Fred is also the author of three books, including Nourishment: What Animals Can Teach Us about Rediscovering Our Nutritional Wisdom; Foraging Behavior: Managing to Survive in a World of Change; and The Art & Science of Shepherding: Tapping the Wisdom of French Herders - a book he co-authored with ecologist, animal behaviorist, and nutritionist Michel Meuret.

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In the case that Dr. Provenza may have escaped your attention, we recommend the link below which is a really informative talk given by Dr. Provenza at Utah State University: The Web of Life Event

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